Apr 29
More on People Skills
In response to my last post, I received a few comments that I wanted to address here. The first comes from Dave:
Great post. But I think in the end I have to disagree with your main premise. Reacting violently to someone elses practice of free speech should never be tolerated. And I know you agree that any crime committed by those angered should be punished, but you also seem to imply that, for instance, the flag burners kinda knew they had it coming. It’s akin to the rape victim who is blamed for the crime committed against her.Freedom of speech should be honored and respected.
Freedom of speech should, indeed, be honored and respected. I’ve never argued otherwise. I do agree, without any hesitation, that any crime committed by those angered by someone else’s right to express themselves should be punished. But if anyone read my post, somehow missed each of the times that I said that the targets of such crimes would not deserve to be targeted, and finished that post seriously believing that I was trying to say that those who make the initial action did deserve what they get, those folks would, in my opinion, belong to the group I mentioned who do not know me as well as they think they do.
Looking at the example Dave cited, I do not think that the flag burners would have deserved to have been attacked. (I think I said that.) I do not think that their attackers would have the right to attack them. (I know I said that.) I do not assume that the flag burners would know that they “had it coming.” My point was, simply, that while they had the right to express themselves the way they did, an alternate method that might not have created such deep reactions beyond whatever point they were trying to make might avoid the hypothetical attack I suggested.
Regardless of the fact that comparing an apparent reprisal for vitriolic posts to a woman getting raped is comparing apples to asparagus, I would like to take it for granted that Dave doesn’t really think that I’d suggest that a rape victim deserved to be raped. But just in case, let me put it this way: there is nothing a woman can do that would make her deserving of being raped. I’ll repeat: there is nothing a woman can do — nothing at all — that would justify someone raping her.
(If anyone needs me to repeat that a third time, perhaps in larger, red, bold type, just let me know.)
At the same time, anyone who thinks that I meant otherwise also objects when law enforcement officers warn women to watch their drinks in bars so that no one can introduce a chemical that might make her more easily victimized. Keeping an eye on your drink so that a predator cannot slip a date-rape drug into it while you’re not looking is similar to being respectful of others when you write online: it will not guarantee that you won’t become a victim of someone else’s felonious acts, but it also will not give someone who might commit the act anyway a more convenient reason to target you.
There are still people who go to bed and rest quite well while leaving their front doors unlocked. Some people leave their cars unlocked with the keys in the ignition. If someone walks into their home and robs them, or steals their car, it is unreasonable to suggest that the victim of the crime deserved it; it is not unreasonable to suggest, however, that they were the enabler for the criminal who committed the act to do so more easily. The criminal might still have broken into their home or stolen their car even if security alarms, motion-sensing light systems and armed guards were all present; but common sense dictates that we take some precautions to at least make it harder for criminals to have the advantage.
To that same degree, the effort to be respectful of others with whom you might disagree might help avoid angering a reader — or a friend of a reader, or a friend of a friend, etc. — to the point that they might go even farther off the deep end than you went to begin with. It won’t guarantee that outcome, but it might help prevent it.
To my remark that on the internet, the rule of physics dictating that every action produces an equal and opposite reaction does not always apply, Shelly said:
“Psychology should not be confused with physics. People don’t obey physical ‘laws.’ Human reactions come as much out of their perceptions as the stimulus itself.”Of course, there is no one psychological theory, either, from behaviorists who look at the reaction and don’t consider the intent behind it to various other schools that try to probe deep into the psyche, such as Freudians.
“It’s the wide range of human behavior/reactions, that makes us so fascinating to study, because not everyone perceives or understands things the same way and likely never will.”
That Dave might suggest, even if he were joking, that what I was saying in that post was in any way akin to the ridiculous suggestion that a woman who is raped must deserve what happened to her serves as a quick proof to the validity of Shelly’s statement. If it was his perception that I intended to portray a rape victim as being “deserving” of what happened to her, then it is clear that what he read was far different from what I intended to convey. As he is the only person who has indicated that they think I meant to suggest such a thing, it’s possible that only he interpreted my post in this manner. Regardless, Shelly is quite right: Not everyone understands the same thing the same way.
You must decide for yourself whether speaking your mind in an intentionally-offensive way is worth the potential backlash that may arise. If you’re responsible, you make that determination before you say what you want to say, and if you decide that the potential price is too high, it might not be a bad idea to consider a different tack.
Karen, I think, summed up best my feelings on dealing with opposing views:
“What it comes down to for me is a very basic principle: people should treat each other with compassion and respoct. They may strongly disagree with each other’s politics, sexual orientation, religion, fashion sense, and or what-have-you, and protest, argue against or mock the other person’s position. But the PERSON should always be respected, even if the position is not.”And once we get that far, we should probably also take the next step, and consider whether the other side of the issue has some validity after all. Maybe it doesn’t, and we don’t necessarily need to rehash the question every time. But we shouldn’t just assume the other guy is always wrong.”
It is my goal, when I bring up a topic here, to respect people, even if I attack their viewpoints or their arguments. An easy example that comes to mind is Cindy Sheehan. I have stated repeatedly that Sheehan has every right to speak out against the war. I do respect her for having the courage to make her feelings known. At the same time, I have attacked her argument that she wanted to meet with the president, a man who she considers to be a liar, to get the truth about why we’re in Iraq, because logically, that argument doesn’t hold water: if you don’t trust him, you don’t trust him, so why pretend that though you believe that he’s willing to lie to the world, he’d suddenly be honest with you on a one-on-one basis? But that’s just one quick example. I try my best to show respect to people, even if I question their motivation or the logic of the position they have taken.
We are a country divided. The most striking poll statistic released in the past week wasn’t that Bush’s approval rating has dropped again to 36%, but that Congress’s approval rating is down to 22%! The poll revealed that 44% of Americans say they’re sick of Republicans and Democrats arguing and 36% say that they feel that Congress never gets anything accomplished.
It’s not surprising statistic if you look at the political “debate” that occurs: we can’t discuss any topic without it becoming a personal attack. If you don’t believe that, visit any blog devoted to one side of the political spectrum or the other: both sides are equally guilty. We seem incapable of discussing an issue these days without filling our discussion with hate-speak or attacks on our opponents. And when we do that, the issue itself gets lost in the one-upping.
How many people were infuriated when Bush made it clear that his philosophy was that you’re either with us or against us? And how many of them treat their opponents the same way when they’re arguing? That’s why so little is getting done these days: we focus so much attention on the way we attack each other that it doesn’t much matter what the argument is about, so long as we’re entertained by the barbs. And yet I think most of us would agree that when someone calls us some bad name because of some position we take, our natural response isn’t to suddenly be open-minded about that person’s argument.
So, no, I don’t mean to suggest that anyone who is a victim of crime deserves to have had a crime committed against them. I do suggest that sometimes, we make ourselves an unnecessarily obvious target for people who are willing to go to any length to have their way.
And still I wonder why we’d want to do that.








April 30th, 2006 at 1:30 am
Great minds and social movers become targets simply because they are different. No other reason is needed.
Peace and love,
Charley
http://journals.aol.com/cdittric77/courage
April 30th, 2006 at 1:45 pm
Darn, if I’d known you would quote me, I’ve have proofread my comment better!
Another great post. Cheers!
Karen
May 6th, 2006 at 10:19 pm
Patrick,
Let me make this more concrete. I am a member of the Riverside Area Peace and Justice Action group. We hold a peace vigil every Friday from 6:00 to 7:00pm. We stand on the corner of University and Iowa in Riverside, California and bear witness to the brutality of war, the occupation, and the need for our troops to come home. We advocate cooperation rather than domination. In short, we rally for peace.
Just last week a group of guys drove buy and threw a handful of nuts and bolts at us–not the first time by a long shot. Once they got post us they than shouted “Liberal Pussies” from their moving vehicle as they sped from the scene.
This should not be tolerated in a free society. We should celebrate the diversity of ideas, not intimidate those we disagree with. Don’t throw bolts at me, tell me why you support this illegal and immoral war.
We all have the freedom to decide how we will respond to conflict. Violence simply shouldn’t be tolerated. If you have to physically attack someone for burning a piece of cloth–an American flag–you need help.
I understand what you are saying, Patrick, but ultimately you’re trying to have it both ways. You don’t believe that there is an justification for these violent acts. You would agree that these guys had no right to throw things at us. And you’d also argue that we have every right to protest the war and advocate peace. So they’re wrong; we’re right…but, you say, if you’d just stayed at home that day these guys would have never thrown anything at you.
I really don’t see how you could deny that. As much as you say you’re not, you’re really giving a little bit of justification to it. That’s what I see in your argument. Perhaps I’m mistaken.
dave
May 6th, 2006 at 11:43 pm
Dave,
If it will help make things more concrete, I’ll take things point by point:
This should not be tolerated in a free society.
Agreed.
We should celebrate the diversity of ideas, not intimidate those we disagree with.
Agreed.
Don’t throw bolts at me, tell me why you support this illegal and immoral war.
What you’re saying here, with editorizing, of course, is: “Don’t commit violence against me, but instead tell me why you disagree with my point of view.” With that, I quite agree.
I do wonder, regardless of how anyone feels about the war, your original phrasing doesn’t contain within it a mild form of intimidation: your statement already puts those who do disagree with you on the defensive, not to explain their position, but rather to argue your choice of wording.
It’s a nice argument tactic, but I’m sure you can recognize the difference between saying, “Tell me why you feel I am wrong” and “Tell me how you can possibly support this illegal and immoral crime.”
Even if they hadn’t thrown the bolts, calling your group “liberal pussies” is also an intimidation tactic that doesn’t open any channel of communication, but instead merely intensifies already-present hostilities between the two sides.
And I am assuming that you would agree with the concept that the real purpose of protest is to open one’s eyes to the other side of an issue through dialog, not through intimidation, name calling and distortions of truth.
We all have the freedom to decide how we will respond to conflict.
I agree with this, but only to a point: I have the freedom to decide how to respond to conflict as long as I do not break the law in doing so. If I break the law to argue against you, I run the risk of giving up my freedom. In fact, if I break the law, I should expect to lose my freedom.
Violence simply shouldn’t be tolerated. If you have to physically attack someone for burning a piece of cloth–an American flag–you need help.
Agreed.
So they’re wrong; we’re right…but, you say, if you’d just stayed at home that day these guys would have never thrown anything at you.
Far be it from me to point out that this is just common sense! It is an unquestionable fact that if you had been at home, the guys on the street corner couldn’t have thrown bolts at you!
They were — also unquestionably — wrong to have done so.
But I wonder how you responded to their act. Did you chase them down and beat hell out of them? Or did you decide to behave within the law? I suspect that you chose the latter.
You wouldn’t have had the right to get violent with them in response, but if you had, while you’d have been in the wrong, it would have been a response precipitated by their illegal act; if they didn’t want to run the risk of retribution, they shouldn’t have broken the law.
Likewise, if they weren’t willing to go to jail on assault and battery charges — and I do hope police catch and prosecute them — they should have found a different way to express themselves.
It is not my intent to “have it both ways,” as you charge, but rather to point out that there is a potential price for speaking one’s mind. And at times, the price is higher than is necessary.
For the record, in your example, you were in the right. Assuming you remained at your post and didn’t “go after” the bolt-throwers, you were 100% in the right. The bolt-throwers, on the other hand, were 100% in the wrong.
You, in making your views known, opened yourself up to criticism — but criticism done within the law. I do not intend anyone to read anything in that statement that in any way reduces the 100% percentage of rightness your side holds.
If the people who had thrown the bolts had instead set up a counter-protest across from you, would you have complained? You wouldn’t have had the right to threaten or intimidate them, but if anyone in your group was fired up enough, that might have been an outcome. If anyone in your group had, they’d have been in the wrong, and it would still have been true that your group’s actions were precipitated by theirs.
That’s not having it both ways: that’s simple logic.
Several times in the past, you have referred to “courage” in terms of speaking one’s mind.
Surely you would agree that it wouldn’t require any degree of courage whatsoever if there were no opportunity for criticism or scorn from those who disagree with you. (And for the sake of argument, let’s assume that responses of the illegal type are out of the equation.)
If everyone truly was of the mind to embrace different views without scorn, prejudice or hatred, it wouldn’t take any moral fortitude to speak out for issues you consider important and to make your beliefs known to everyone who will listen.
As you point out, everyone is not of that mind. That’s one reason why some have a harder time than others with the notion of “speaking up.” It doesn’t give you or anyone else the right to try to intimidate them into doing so.
While we’re on the subject of embracing diverse ideas and bring tolerant of each other’s freedom, one’s right not to speak when one prefers to remain silent should be equally tolerated. Your past remarks are proof that this isn’t the case, either.
But the need for “courage” to spell out your beliefs by taking a stand only brings us back to what I’ve said from the beginning: that there is a price for speaking one’s mind that is occasionally far too high.
You have now seen firsthand, as if you needed any further proof, that there are wackoes out there who won’t hesitate when it comes to breaking the law to disagree with you when you make your feelings public.
So the big question now is, will you continue your efforts? If, knowing that some will take the extreme route to respond, you continue to protest, you are accepting a basic truth about the consequences of speaking one’s mind that others are not willing to accept.