Apr 30
The Obligation Not to Take Offense
“Wow…Patrick this is one time I have to disagree with you quite strongly also. And since this would be my opinion I know you will respect it after your posting.I think if you just did the first part alone that would have been your opinion…you don’t feel offended. When you went on to the next part of not getting your blood pressure up you were judging her opinion. She said “right” but I don’t think that person meant it in the strictest sense as law. I certainly didn’t take it that way & knew what she meant. I understand what you are trying to say but calling names or poking fun is not ok just because someone does not “seem” upset. It seems that just 1 joke or name calling should hurt but it leads to so much more & pretty soon it is taunting.
You have to remember also people come from different prior experiences and some can handle this better than others. They are on different point in their journey of life & just because you would not get upset does not mean others shouldn’t.
I’ve always asked my students is it ok for Jeff Foxworthy to make Redneck jokes. I love him but it makes you think. I’m a blonde, so if I say a blonde joke it is ok? No! It demeans other blondes & does not give myself respect actually.
Lastly, your point of people saying things when they are ignorant of the topic…that still does not wash with me. If anything it is even more offensive because they do not make the effort nor find compassion to find out. The how stereotyping & ingroup/outgroup idea. People did not know alot about African Americans. They thought they were unintelligent etc and look what happened. Look what is STILL happening. Then how we treated Japanese people in America during WWII and now the anyone who looks Middle Eastern. Whenever we use any means to separate ourselves from others it is not good. Bringing us closer in LOVING, COMPASSIONATE ways is what creates PEACE & more LOVE!”
I do respect her opinion, as I respect the opinion of everyone who shows mine respect when they respond. But I note something very interesting in your first statement: you didn’t say that my post “offended” you. (I hope that it didn’t.) To me, there is a big difference between being offended by something and simply disagreeing. Maybe the person who started the post wasn’t really offended. But she said she was, and since I don’t know her personally, I can only go with what she actually said and guess the rest. If she had said she disagreed, I might not have even responded. But to claim being offended implies — at least to me — that she has a lot more emotional turmoil involved in the situation. And as you know, that can make anxiety worse.
So my suggestion to her that she shouldn’t let something so simple, something she herself called a “dumb joke,” was more meant to be a health-related suggestion than ridicule. Maybe I didn’t make that clear the first time; I tried to make it more clear the second time around.
Psychfun is absolutely right when she suggests that we all have our own unique experiences along the journey. Whatever set this person off in terms of agoraphobia or panic disorder could well be something that wouldn’t phase me. And the things that I worry about could seem as silly to her as her taking offense to a “dumb joke” seems to me.
But my problem with her trying to make such a big deal out of this is a question of a double standard: she wants to complain about something she disagrees with or has a problem with, yet she doesn’t want anyone to be able to disagree with her? Sorry, I don’t play those games. She didn’t ask to hear from only those who agreed with her position: she asked for everyone’s opinion. And while I did poke a little fun about her “right” to be offended, I gave her my honest opinion.
If you make a blond joke, does it demean other blonds? I can see that point. If I make a joke about being fat, it potentially demeans me and everyone else who is overweight. But here, I think, we go back to the whole issue of “taking offense.”
If a blond makes a blond joke, or a fat person makes a fat joke, or a gay man makes a gay joke, or a Jew makes an anti-semitic joke, it ought to be safe to assume that the person making the joke doesn’t find the joke all that offensive. But we seem to have this extra qualification at play that seems a bit unfair: if the fat guy makes the fat joke, it’s okay. If someone who isn’t fat makes the same joke, it becomes something very different. No one bothers to pause and wonder whether the person might have been fat at one point and overcame the condition later. We make a snap judgment based solely on that particular moment.
So if Don Imus uses the word “ho” to describe a black woman, there’s a problem big enough to have people protesting and to get him fired, but if a rapper who is also black uses the same term to describe a black woman, well, that’s fine? To me, that is an indication that the “offensive” word must not be so offensive after all. And what those who are offended by it are doing would seem to be attaching some additional prejudice to their interpretation of the message to then decide whether or not it bothers them. I have a problem with that.
As for Psychfun’s last point, let me make it clear that I don’t make any attempts to give ignorant people some blanket license to be ignorant and never attempt to actually learn something about the people they ridicule. Of course they should; but then again, if they were remotely interested in doing so, they wouldn’t made the comment to start with.
If we’re going to judge things equally, then we have to take a comment like the one the poster was offended by, and realize that no matter who said it, whether that person ever experienced a moment of agoraphobia or not, it was either an ignorant or a funny thing to say. If you find it funny, then there’s no problem. And if you think it was said out of ignorance, then it should be easier to let it go.
We can’t bring ourselves together in a spirit of compassion if we’re getting so wrapped up in petty things that divide us or cause unnecessary drama. Did she write to the show and make a compassionate argument to the writers explaining why that wasn’t funny? I hope so, but I doubt it. What she did do is to criticize people she felt were being insensitive to people like her by making it all about her.
One of the first steps in getting along with each other is learning that not everyone will always understand us, and working to give those who don’t the chance to do so before condemning them.
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April 30th, 2007 at 4:23 am
Well, do I feel honored! HA! Ok, I just went back to the first post that started this to see what she said again. It seems she started her reply to you all about the issue that you felt she shouldn’t be so upset. That to me means if you just said why you disagreed & left out the 2nd part she would not have addressed this issue. Then the very end she is reinforcing why she felt she felt offended, trying to explain to you why she felt this way since you were not viewing she should. To me it seems like she is trying to get you to understand why she feels she should be upset about this. I don’t think there is anything wrong with what she did.
Ok, now to this posting…(do I have the right amount? Ha!)
When I read your comment I didn’t read it as a health suggestion. Remember with email, im & posting it is not the same as being with someone. Perhaps you hear in your mind your voice tone being jolly etc but we don’t always read it that way.
Now, just because you gave your honest opinion does not mean people can’t continue the conversation & say “I still think you are wrong because…” To give your opinion when someone asks for it doesn’t mean your going to accept it…it just continues the conversation which makes people think back & forth. So in some ways can one say you won’t give it unless someone agrees because if they say they disagree that is not ok?
Next to the person making the joke. They are not making the joke to themselves in their own mirror. They are doing this to others and this is the issue. Being in psychology, I am VERY concerned about attitudes and behaviors and how they are formed. If your boss thinks his company is horrible or a person & he keeps it to himself no problem, but if he continues to say it to his employees what will happen to peformance. Same thing can be true of a family situation and thus society as a whole. I do agree that this would hold true of rappers as you mentioned & in fact there is a rapper talking about this now, but this does not wash out what Imus did as being wrong. It is wrong & so are the wrappers. It is kinda like the old fight, “He did it too!” so therefore I shouldn’t be punished because Johnny wasn’t! Ugh. Bill Cosby brought this issue up a while back actually. It is exactly my point that if blondes should not make blonde jokes then rappers should not use “ho” or other demeaning language either. The general media is slanted on the negative more.
I’ll give you another one that the NEA will probably be discussing this summer…the recent Baskin Robbins commercials making fun of changing grades just for ice cream…not a good message to send out!
Your point of ignorant people not being interested in learning, well I have a whole lot of ignorant people who walk into my classes & many times don’t think I have anything that they can learn and change their views with, but as we are 1 week from finals week I can assure you most are quite surprised how much they do change. Talking about issues is the way you can open minds.
Now your last point on no way to get closer with getting upset about petty things, again what is petty to you is not petty to others and vice versa. You would have to then realize that if you are going to say to someone what they think is petty then you will certainly have to accept when someone tells you what you are upset about is petty…like maybe your last posting on the trainer…hmmm.
The last point I will make is actually the APA may be interested in this topic of the box. I’ll let you know…I can post to listserv.
Both of you might be interested in a new movie called “Martian Boy” with John Cusak. The boy lives in a box outside for a bit but bascially for a different reason though. Now this looks good to me & I’ll have to see but if they do not treat the boys disorder correctly, then the APA would be making a statement. Me, Myself & Irene the disorder stated was totally wrong. As Good As It Gets, Mr. Jones and others did great jobs actually describing the disorder, this is very important.
April 30th, 2007 at 4:48 am
Psych,
More good points. Sure, she can continue to address my points as I raise them. And there’s nothing wrong with her trying to better explain her position.
But I have the right to continue to better explain mine, right? After all, I explained my position here, you countered, I addressed your comment, and you countered that argument. There’s nothing wrong with discussion. But I don’t choose to feel “offended” or “attacked” by what you have had to say. Maybe that’s me…maybe anyone else WOULD feel that way. I just don’t see why.
I do agree that this would hold true of rappers as you mentioned & in fact there is a rapper talking about this now, but this does not wash out what Imus did as being wrong.
I’m not trying to excuse Imus; but if he can say it and there’s a firestorm over it, while others can say it and the same people take NO notice, then I think it’s reasonable to question how “wrong” the word really is. If we’re only going to go on the attack based on the color of the speaker’s skin, aren’t WE being AS RACIST as those we’re accusing?
You would have to then realize that if you are going to say to someone what they think is petty then you will certainly have to accept when someone tells you what you are upset about is petty…like maybe your last posting on the trainer…hmmm.
Sure. Others could very well read that post and wonder why I’m upset. But I think this is a case of comparing apples to oranges: the trainer cancelled on me personally. The person making the joke was just saying something on a television show, and the person who took offense acknowledged that it was a dumb joke. The only reason it was personal for her was that she TOOK it that way. The reason it was personal for me was that it HAPPENED TO ME PERSONALLY.
I could see a big difference if a person came up to her SPECIFICALLY and said that. It isn’t what happened. She said she KNEW it was a “dumb joke.” Not all jokes are funny to all people. But this was a reality show with some kind of “fake” advice segment. If she can’t take something on a segment that is obviously intended to be humorous, a fact she’s AWARE of, then heaven help her if someone she knows said it TO her. In a humor segment, there’s often no “message” anyone is trying to send; it’s just a joke.
The other difference is that I wasn’t “offended” by the trainer. I was annoyed, a little angry about it, but I didn’t take it as a “personal attack” or “insult.” It was a major inconvenience that I don’t appreciate, and her casual manner about it didn’t help the situation. But I didn’t view it as her being “insensitive” to dog owners in general, nor would I expect another dog owner to be “offended” at the message she has sent. There was no “message.” It was just a failure in customer service.
May 1st, 2007 at 4:43 am
Being offended, well I would be offended if someone said I shouldn’t be upset by something. You are saying you are not upset & that is fine but are you saying nothing anyone ever says to you gets you upset then???
No, I don’t believe that just because an African American says the N. word and doesn’t get in trouble & a white person would say it & get in trouble that the word thus is ok….no way.
The personal idea…one can say you “did take the cancelation personally” when you shouldn’t have…she had to cancel for her own reasons that had nothing to do with you. Situational reason. I will definitely take blonde jokes personally because I am a blonde & I think Italians should take Italian jokes personally. It demeans anyone who fits that category. So we should just say “Ah N. are all…” and no African Americans should take offense to that word because the person didn’t directed to them personally? Sorry doesn’t wash with me.
Hmmm have to think on that idea of defining with emotions differently. Someone road rages at me. They did it to me personally, I’m annoyed and I’ll be offended…they don’t even know me & what reason I may be going slow etc. I’ll keep thinking…
May 1st, 2007 at 4:51 am
Told you I would keep thinking….
Thought I’d see what it says about “offended”…dictionary.com
“To cause displeasure, anger, resentment, or wounded feelings in.”
So…causing one to be angry is offended…don’t have to have resentment but can & just wounding your feelings.
May 1st, 2007 at 5:38 am
First regarding the definition, I think it was clear — at least to me — that this person took it personally; it was more than just being annoyed.
Second, regarding your road rage example, yes, I agree with you: someone who commits some form of road rage against you is doing something TO you. Someone who responds to someone else’s question, a question that may well have been faked to start with, isn’t doing ANYTHING to YOU, unless the question WAS real and YOU’RE the one who wrote it. So why take THAT personally, especially if you know it was meant at a joke? That was my whole point with her.
Third, when you call in to your workplace and tell them that you can’t make it in, how does your boss react? Does he just say, “Well, the reason is THEIR business” and take no more notice? Or do they want to know whether your sick or have some family emergency of some kind? Every job I’ve ever had, the employer required SOME sort of explanation. Most of the jobs I’ve had included benefits that set aside specific blocks of time for illness, family emergency, berevement, etc. It is not at all unreasonable for an employer to expect SOME sort of explanation. If you’re sick, you shouldn’t be expected to detail every symptom; but if you’re sick, saying that you’re sick is reasonable. I can’t imagine calling my boss and simply saying I won’t be in and that “these things sometimes happen.”
In the case of the animal trainer, I was her employer: I was paying HER, not the other way around. I felt I was due an explanation. I didn’t take it as a personal offense…I assume it was nothing against me personally since we’d never even met. But I felt that it was a failure of customer service and an apparent lack of real concern about it. She will not get the chance to serve me again.
Finally, regarding jokes that target groups, I agree with you that the same offending words should offend no matter who says them because they all do the same thing. But here’s my point from the start in all of this: we either value freedom of speech or we don’t. If we don’t, then we need to start working now on the list of words and topics that NO ONE can say EVER. No exceptions.
If we do value freedom of speech, then we need to learn to stop getting so worked up when someone exercises the right to say what’s on their mind that happens not to agree with our own position.
Anything else is a double standard that only leads to resentment and MORE offense.